About Mormonism

Investigating Mormonism from many different angles

Prop 8 and the Mormon Church

Posted by nebula0 on August 29, 2008


Am I the only one who finds this incredibly disturbing?? 

http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/08/07/the-my-girl-bill/#more-830

Stake Presidents going around asking members for money to support a political agenda as if it is a religious duty… really?  I’m honestly shocked to see this story, I would’ve never guessed things have gotten that far.  As I’ve already said, Mormonism has no business getting itself involved in defining what marriage ought to be considering the place that polygamy/plural marriage played in the past persecution of Mormons.

This is just out of control.

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29 Responses to “Prop 8 and the Mormon Church”

  1. Jesse said

    To members of the LDS Church, it is not a political agenda that we’re supporting. It is a moral issue.

    Also, promoting good morals and standing up for truth and righteousness is a religious duty.

  2. nebula0 said

    It’s still a political issue– it’s a political platform with political results through political means (donating to support a proposition). The fact that religious leaders are asking Mormons to donate specific large sums of money to a political cause should be deeply disturbing.

    I find it hilarious Mormons can sit there and with a straight face claim moral righteousness considering their ancestry was disenfranchised for family experimentation.

    It’s outrageous.

  3. Seth R. said

    I did a write-up on the issue of Proposition 8 last month on that same blog. You can read it here:

    Looking Toward Egypt: Why Government Endorsement Cannot Save Marriage

  4. nebula0 said

    Well Seth, good job. I think you make some great points there. It was my libertarian impulse which reacted so violently to the initial post in question which resulted in my reaction, and your reaction could be seen as the other side of the coin to mine. You have good thoughts for faithful LDS to chew on.

  5. Anonymous said

    Seth,

    I think your write-up hit on some good points (so did the other side) as did your comments on my disturbing entry. I was mostly in agreement with you when you said:

    But I also believe in supporting my people. I would do this for them. Misguided as I think they are, I would do this for them.

    Before the Church’s admonition to support Prop 8 I was pretty apathetic about same-sex marriage. Whatever, right? But then the prophet submitted that letter. As far as I’m concerned this is one of those times we were promised would happen– when we’d be asked to do something challenging, even against the grain. But I, too, believe in supporting my people.

    The by-product of this issue that I find most interesting is the disparity among the Saints. Even from a Church-savvy non-member’s perspective it should be curious– we’re talking about a people who supposedly hold strongly to their testimonies that their prophet is the Lord’s representative on earth and have covenanted to be obedient. Suddenly they howl their displeasure because it’s something they can’t reflexively get behind. Some may say they’re exercising their free agency and intelligence; I say they might want to re-evaluate their faith.

  6. David T. said

    That was me in the last entry– sorry, didn’t mean to be anonymous.

  7. Anonymous said

    I believe that no matter what religion you are you should follow Jesus Christ teachings. There is a reason why man and woman are to be married for one procreation. As much as we may think we know it all God is the all knowing. We should support our future families and generations by supporting prop 8.

    Kim

  8. nebula0 said

    It’s inevitable that gays will earn the right to marry. Why anyone should care what is legally recognized on a ‘moral basis’ spells bad political thinking. How much do you really want government regulating your private life anyway?

  9. Laura said

    Are you people informed about the consequences if this Prop 8 fails???!! Massachusetts legalized gay marriage and it caused the Catholic Adoption agencies to close their doors in Mass. Priests will be sued for hate speech if they speak against gay marriage and if they refuse to marry a same-sex couple. That is happening in Canada right now which legalized gay marriage. Church sponsored universities will be required to provide same-sex marriage housing or lose their tax exemptions. Don’t let the media fool you about this! Please vote yes on PROP 8!

  10. Anonymous said

    Thanks Laura for the previous post. All Christian religion should be concerned. Therefore it is Mormonism’s business just like any other religion that is threatened by same sex marriage. Furthermore, we need to consider the influence the legalization of same sex marriage would have on our children. I dont want the government or its employees (teachers) teaching my children at tender ages that same sex marriage is acceptable. That is what would be expected of public school teachers if same sex marriage would be legalized. Additionally, the legalization of same sex marriage would allow more same sex couples to adopt children. The government would enforce the new law and all adoption agencies run by churches who don’t give children to same sex couples would be shut down or forced to change. The ideal environment for children is one with a loving and committed husband and wife. It is natural and it is logical. Having adopted children be brought up by same sex couples is potentially problematic. It is the same with single people who want to adopt children. Other and better solutions to the homeless children problem need to be found. Children should have the right to be reared in a home closest to the ideal environment. Anything less is irresponsible.

  11. nebula0 said

    Sure, so it’s okay for Stake Presidents to come to your house with a revelation that you are to give x amount to a political cause– and that doesn’t violate the separation of church and state? It’s a waste of money. This is going to happen whether you like it or not and frankly considering the state of the ‘traditional marriage’ (some concept of marriage which ends with half of couples divorcing) I don’t think it makes an iota of difference. Is it really better that children are raised in a broken home than a loving one with a same sex couple?

    Nope.

  12. Ayo! said

    Nebula, what is the divorce rate for same-sex couples?

  13. nebula0 said

    Well Ayo, since they don’t yet have the right to marry, or when they’ve had limited rights to that effect have been such a short time period that there can’t be reliable data to tell us that. I would suspect that it parallels the divorce rate of the rest of the population.

  14. pjj said

    To see how effective this campaign has been, take a look at http://www.mormonsfor8.com, and then click on the link to the spreadsheet there. You’ll see all the donors of more than $1000 to protectmarriage so far. (Election laws don’t require the smaller donations to be reported so quickly.) Donors who are mormon are being identified, just to see how effective the church campaign has been. Currently about 20% of donors have been identified as mormon or not. 18% of total donors are mormon as of last night.

  15. You mark out the LDS church as being so unique in it’s actions. Can you think of no other religion actively involved in this cause? There is a list on http://www.ProtectMarriage.com/ of the organizations involved. The LDS church is just one of hundreds. And, as a matter of fact, any and every religion has business with this proposition. Do you realize that if Prop 8 does not pass, ministers of any church could be sued for hate crimes by speaking against same-sex marriage, and churches could lose tax exemption status and be sued for not allowing same-sex marriage into their religion? And, do you also realize that if Prop 8 passes, the ONLY thing that same-sex couples will lose is a piece of paper stating marriage? Their status as domestic partners will remain precisely as it is, which is, with exactly the same rights and benefits as married couples. Yet if it does not pass, the will of the people will have been thwarted and undermined. 61% of Californian voters have already expressed their view – marriage should be between a man and a woman.

  16. Brenna said

    This is all I have to say…

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=156320&title=mass.-hysteria

  17. John said

    I’m not an “Historian” but this all this reminds me of Zion’s Camp. An episode in the early history of the Church were twe declared a Holy War against the gentiles of Missouri who had misbehaved and thrown us out of “Zion”

    Zion was clearly understood to be a physical place in those days. And our talk was very tough. We were promised that the Lord was on our side but in the end we lost that war and redefined Zion.

    I’m not a prophet either but my instincts tell me that after we lose this war we’ll redefine family too.

  18. You really believe that?

    That’s not wholly accurate. The saints BELIEVED Zion to be a physical location. It was never officially defined that way, however. And that is a rather weak example. A place compared to a fundamental concept from the beginning of time is a bit of a stretch. Family is the cornerstone of the Latter Day Saint religion. There is no changing of concepts to suit mankind. Believe as you will, I can promise you the church will be standing firmly for family so long as it exists on the face of this earth.

  19. Jack Wayd said

    The fear is that groups who oppose gay marriage will be forced to accept the membership of homosexuals, polygamists, and bestials. Currently, in CA, a fertility doctor cannot deny fertility treatments to a gay couple; likewise, clergy will not be able to deny marrying a gay couple or they will face a discrimination lawsuit.
    If the same-sex marriage amendments/laws were written in such guaranteeing freedom of religion and freedom of assembly then such propositions would be voted down handidly.
    You may not understand this as this is a very complicated matter, but denying the right of assembly is one of the founding rights in amendment one. There are groups who are waiting to prosecute clergy when Prop 8 fails.

  20. Jack Wayd said

    Regarding the SP asking for an amount. Did he know who you are before he came? Perhaps you are known as a successful businessperson or perhaps people know you as a tightwad and stash a lot of cash, or maybe someone knew you were planning on buying a dream home?
    Perhaps your clergy does rifle through tithing receipts, but then they wouldn’t really be clergy in spirit nor would they be a spirtiually effective leader.

  21. nebula0 said

    People miss the point here. THe point is that a Stake President is telling a member that he has had a revelation in his capacity as SP to give a large donation to a political cause. For those who understand why that is such a big deal in the Mormon environment of obedience to the leaders, this should be disturbing.

  22. No stake president I’ve heard of has declared a revelation of himself. It’s not just individual stakes – it’s the entire church in California that has been asked to donate of their time and money to this cause. No, I do not find it disturbing. Any and every church should be asking the same, as this affects them more powerfully than any other organization. I myself have spent entire weekends contacting and identifying voters for the cause. Why? Because I understand what impact this will have on me and my church.

  23. nebula0 said

    Christopher,

    That’s why I posted this link. The SP himself went to a particular member with a specific number in mind that he cast as revelation. There it is.

  24. Anonymous said

    “Some may say they’re exercising their free agency and intelligence; I say they might want to re-evaluate their faith.”

    This is a very good point. I have re-evaluated my faith and found that my faith tells me that the church has been irreemably corrupt, and I will no longer be associating myself with it. Thanks, LDS church, for making it so much easier to free up my Sundays for more uplifting activities.

  25. erin said

    I’m very curious to where you are getting information about stake presidents of the LDS church requesting “specific large amount of money” from specific people to support Prop. 8.

  26. nebula0 said

    Erin,

    The link in my original post!

    Have people stopped reading the original post?

  27. Abby said

    Thanks for the blog. Same-sex mar-riage proponents have been duped…they think they are fighting for equality or love but that is not true and here’s why…
    It seems that prop. 8 isn’t really about love.
    Prop. 8 is about freedom for ALL Americans.
    If prop. 8 fails it will hurt the freedom of you, me, AND same-sex couples.
    Yes! Prop. 8 is a vote for freedom. There is a better way we can all live together in peace.
    Check it out for yourself instead of opinions we need more facts: http://www.ifprop8fails.com, http://www.preservingmarriage.com, and http://www.protectmarriage.com

  28. nebula0 said

    Abby,

    That, like the other comments, completely misses the point of my post. My OP had to do with a church overly involved in a political cause.

  29. If you don’t *like* gay marriages, don’t have one. But don’t for one second you think you can cast a vote to deny SOMEONE ELSE the ability to make a decision that you yourself can simply choose not to make.
    If you think marriage is about “procreation” then only heterosexual couples who are FERTILE should be allowed to get married, meaning fertility tests should be done before marriage licenses can be granted. All post-menopausal women would be banned from marrying.
    And marriages that do not produce children should be annulled. Is that what you want?

    Allowing gay people to marry will not stop future generations of heterosexuals from marrying and procreating, so I don’t know why you appalling self-professed “Christians” think that allowing gays to marry would somehow mean straight people will stop having children. That’s some appallingly stupid logic, and decidedly UN-CHRISTIAN morality, that you’re spitting out.

    As for the Mormons…those wacky cultists…Three levels of Heaven? Black people are a cursed race of Cain? CRAZY.
    What about churches and religious groups that DO support gay marriage? Why should they be banned from performing them simply because a bunch of bigots in another church have an issue with it?

    Mark my words: Every single one of you that supported Prop 8 is going to be apologized for, and forgotten, by your grandchildren. You are an affront to Human Equality, and your prejudices and bigotry are the real problem with this world of ours. Gay people marrying hurts no one. Promoting anti-gay ideologies in the name of Christ…well, that’s incredibly harmful. The Blood is on your hands. Repent, Bigots.

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