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Is Mormonism Christian?

Posted by nebula0 on August 21, 2008


Better yet, why are Mormons so intent on being considered Christians?  Because here’s the deal, a hundred years ago, Mormons were perfectly happy being just Mormons, a peculiar people, a people set apart in their land of Zion.  They saw the rest of Christianity as apostate, the central creeds of historic or normative Christianity as abominations (see Joseph Smith’s first vision as canonized), their paid clergy as corrupt.  Now Mormons go out of the way to promote themselves as everyday Christians just trying to live a clean lifestyle.  What happened? 

Before the middle of the 20th C Mormons who used to understand their identity as Mormons as tied to their land of Zion (Utah/southern Idaho).  They were literally set apart.  However in the middle of the 20th C Mormons began to migrate outside of the Mormon corridor, into that vast mission field which is the rest of America.  Suddenly many Mormons found that they had an investment in the outside society, they had careers, business contacts, friends, all who weren’t a part of that integral Mormon system they left behind in Utah.  Is it any coincidence that they started to advertise themselves as quintessential Americans during this period?  As time wore on, conservative Christianity came into vogue.  Carter, Reagan, Falwell all signaled the reentry of conservative evangelicalism back into the American public sphere.  The Christian Right set the standard for what was to be clean, respectable living, and you bet the Mormons were interested in being cast as part of that group.  They got their chance by actively and openly challenged the ERA movement (as they are now quite explicit about their opposition to gay marriage), and their PR department worked overtime to fit them into the American Christian mainstream.  Their logo changed from equal font size of every word in: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to emphasizing, through a bigger font size, the name Jesus Christ.  This is but one example of many.  Now you hear young Mormons refusing to call themselves Mormons but rather “LDS Christian” and insisting that they are Christians because, after all, they believe in Christ (as if it is that simple, see Mormon Theology 101 on this blog).  What a difference a century makes!

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48 Responses to “Is Mormonism Christian?”

  1. Jay said

    I would ask why are non-LDS Christians so intent on proving Mormons aren’t Christian? That is a much more interesting question. Mormons have never considered themselves non-Christian as you have suggested.

    “…a hundred years ago, Mormons were perfectly happy being just Mormons, a peculiar people…”

    To the contrary, Mormons have always considered themselves Christian.

    “Now you hear young Mormons refusing to call themselves Mormons but rather “LDS Christian””

    I don’t know any Mormons that refer to themselves in such terms other than when they are talking to someone that is questioning their loyalty to Christ by saying they are not Christian. This is extremely offensive to someone that accepts Christ as their Savior, as it should be to any Christian, LDS or not. Of course they would emphasize they are Christian in order to reaffirm to those that challenge them where their loyalty is placed. Needless to say, in normal day to day LDS speak no one refers to themselves as LDS Christian. To a Mormon (and most people) the term is just redundant.

  2. ditchu said

    Right on Jay!

    I wonder why Nubela0 has not asked if Catholics are Christian, or Lutherens, or Baptists, ect…

    the list could go on and on, but the matter of this issue is how we define Christian.
    There are several differing attitudes as to what classifies as Christian, but as I have understood it the most widely used deffinition of Christian is, “Having Faith in and following Christ Jesus.”

    Wikipedia makes this statment about Christians: “Its followers, known as Christians, believe that Jesus is the son of God and is also the Messiah (Christ) who was prophesied in the Old Testament (the part of scripture common to Christianity and Judaism).”

    By this, we can see that not only are Mormons Christian, but many groups that claim to be Christian often fall within this model.

    Thank you for the oppertunity to clairify this,
    -D

  3. measure76 said

    You can only count Mormons as Christians if you let the mormons define the term.

    Mormons do NOT believe in that grace alone saves. Mormons do NOT believe that Jesus is the only one you need to save you. (Look up mormon doctrine on why weed need Joseph Smith’s approval to get to the highest degree of heaven)

    Mormons do NOT believe that Jesus is God.

    Mormons do believe in a figure they call Christ, but it is not the same figure that Christians generally believe in.

    And I apologize in advance, but due to an ancient blood fued I need to flame ditchu.

    Ditchu, You’re a fricking moron if you think that wikipedia is the final source for determining the beliefs of Christianity.

  4. nebula0 said

    Hello everyone. Thanks for your comments. I have to agree with measure that Wikipedia is not the authoritative source to end all argumentation, it’s not an authoritative source for anything at all, come to think of it. How to define Mormonism is not so straightforward. Yes it’s true, Mormons claim to worship Christ, but when Mormonism has such a different view of the nature of deity than normative Christianity does, is it so useful to define it within normative Christianity? THis is not a small matter, at all. The shift from monotheism to polytheism represents a fundamental paradigm shift in theological viewpoint. I would argue that Mormonism is on the verge of being its own unique religious tradition all together (and I’m not the only one, see Shipps). And, why not? Mormonism claims to transcend normative Christianity, normative Christianity is an aberrant following abominable creeds according to Mormonism, why would MOrmons be so eager to be identified with those who are so misled and in apostasy?

  5. ditchu said

    No, Wikipedia is not much of an athority but it does demonstrait the general thinking of the masses about how they define things.

    Now you use the term “Normative Christianity” and what is “Normative Christianity”? Is it a generalized understanding and agreement of certian codes and creeds? Then it is not the whole of Christindom but a segment consisting of many but not all groups of Christians. This I can agree with, it is not good to redefine general terms to exclude certian groups but to re-term what we are discussing is good when we find that the topic is too broad to get to the heart of what you want to be said.

    It is my stance that “Mormons” are Christian in every way of the term, but I do agree that they would not fit your “Normative Christianity” due in part to the fact that there was consern as to which “Normative Christian” groups is right for the a certian young man (Joseph smith Jr. age 14) to join and his answer (from God) was none of them, this is the founding event of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints.

    Was Martin Luther a normative Catholic? No, he was labled a radical and rebelous Catholic that caused trouble when he questioned the Roman Catholic Church and some of their practices.

    Was Jesus Christ a normative Jew? No, he would have been considered a radical in his time as he angered the Jewish Leadership.

    We “Mormons” may not be “Normative Christians” but we are in all rights Christian, to remove the classification of Christian from our Faith would debase any classification of religion of mid-eastern root.

    Also, there is some confusion in what Measure would mislead people to think about “Mormonism.” He talks about “salvation” but then he goes into some diatribe about “highest degree of Heaven” which I should explain quickly that that is about “Exaltation.” In the general beleifs of “Mormonism” there is the same idea of “Salvation” as with most other Christian groups, however there is also a general beleif in “Exaltation” and there being more than one degree of Golry. The idea of “Exaltation” and “Salvation” co-exist but are not exactlly the same Idea.
    It is like this: take an apple, it has a red skin and white flesh, but the tree is a tree with gray bark and green leaves and it produces the fruit we see as an apple.
    Now when we talk about an Apple we generally speak of the fruit but there are times we can discuss the Apple-Tree that produces the Fruit.

    Measure just talked about an Apple like it was the Tree when he wrote about “Salvation” then confused himself with “Exaltation”

    ***a side note***
    Measure stated: “And I apologize in advance, but due to an ancient blood fued I need to flame ditchu.”
    As to “ancient blood fued” ancient as of a week ago and as for “blood fued” measure just wants to pick on me because he thinks I something important enough to warrent his time searching the net to find and flame.
    *****

    Thank you again,
    -D

  6. measure76 said

    SO you don’t deny that Jesus alone cannot bring you exhaltation, but only salvation? and that we also need Joe Smith, pedophile, for our exhaltation?

    Don’t worry about the blood fued only being a week old, ditchu, it’s just getting started, and I don’t plan to die for a LONG time.

  7. nebula0 said

    ditchu,

    At what point does a religion become it’s own? Think of Christianity for example, at what point was it Christianity and not a sect of Judaism? Was it when gentiles could join wihtout first becoming Jews? Perhaps, but what was the underlying theology that allowed for that transformation?

    What I am arguing here is that Mormonism is as radically different from normative/historical Christianity as Christianity is from Judaism. Mormonism understands basic terms used in Christianity such as God and eternal life in radically different ways. You can choose to take that negatively, you can choose to kick against the pricks and demand to be recognized as everyday Christians by the rest of the Christian world you have rejected, or you can embrace an identity that is new and apart.

    I don’t think Mormons ought to be so surprised that most of the Christian world rejects them as ‘in the fold’ (think of the RCC rejecting Mormon baptisms as valid, but accepting Lutheran baptisms as valid). Mormonism rejects the rest of Christian theology as expressed through those abominable creeds, after all.

  8. ditchu said

    measure,
    Let me be as plane as I can here: I don’t know what you are talking about needing Joseph Smith for exaltation! I have yet to come across that docturne, so I think you just have a few things screwed up in your understanding of Mormon Docturne.

    About the Blood Fued, I will have you know that i do not take lightly to threats, but as I am quite sure you cannot find me, I will dismiss this asap. Please, do not threaten me nor my family further.

  9. nebula0 said

    Uhh… I don’t see where measure threatened anyone?

  10. ditchu said

    nebula0,
    I think my point here is that we are Christian, Christianity is a larger group than what I think you have scoped it out as until you started segmenting it as with the segment “normative Christianity.”

    I do like your question, “At what point does a religion become it’s own?”
    I do understand this question but as of yet cannot offer a reasonable answer, as I am still asking that as well.

    You may be right in some of the ways you see Mormonism as radically different from normative/historical Christianity, but I think “as Christianity is from Judaism” is a bit far.

    Your statment: “Mormonism understands basic terms used in Christianity such as God and eternal life in radically different ways.”
    Is well said but untrue. My personal experiance of groing up Lutheren and having a Catholic Parent, and investigating many churches including a Baptist church for over 3 years, I have found that there are many basic beleifs in the General Christian Population, but each Church has its distinct and differing view on these beleifs, some of them on fundementals of Salvation. Mormons fall into this as well and we may have differing views but I see that they somewhat extend beyone the limmit other Christian gorups are willing to seek. Take the exaltation idea for instance, It includes the general view on Salvation as described by the Gospel of Christ (almost every Christian group agrees upon this) however it continues to look into what lay beyond the veil. What is your vision of Heaven? Does that agree with the views of your Church?

    I am guessing that it does, and that is what we Mormons view Exaltation. It is a common (to Mormonism) view of Heaven, and the Kingdom of God.

    As for you comment: “You can choose to take that negatively, you can choose to kick against the pricks and demand to be recognized as everyday Christians by the rest of the Christian world you have rejected, or you can embrace an identity that is new and apart.”

    We do not strive to be “recognized as everyday Christians.” Why should we nominalize ourselves and truncate out Faith to be just “Normal.” We embrace the Truth, and with that, the Truth about ourselves. We are Christian but not “Normal Christians” We have an understanding of the Gospel that is at varrance with a large portion of Christianity but we cannot shake off the Christian title just to be distinctive, for we know that deep down all of our beleifs fit the model of Christianity. It seems you are asking us to be dishonest, we cannot comply with those wishes, we Mormons must keep our Christian Name.

    -D

  11. ditchu said

    Neb. He says he is in a blood fued with me. that comment invloves my family and if it were so it would mean someone is going to die by direct influence on the part of the other party. I take death threats seriously.

  12. measure76 said

    I have never threatened anyone physically. this is purely an e-bloodfued. I’m sorry if you misunderstood.

  13. ditchu said

    measure,
    my computer does not bleed.

  14. nebula0 said

    ditchu,

    Calm down. It’s obvious measure is joking around. If you are that sensitive you probably shouldn’t be online.

  15. nebula0 said

    ditchu,

    Here’s the deal in terms of your earlier, substantive post. It’s true that in the ‘normative’ Christian world there are many different beliefs and fights over doctrines. I wouldn’t disagree with that. What is different however is that Mormonism has a radically different view of what deity is in the first place and this is where Mormonism crosses out of the Christian boundary. This is why the RCC refuses to recognize Mormon baptisms as valid, though it will accept Presbyterian baptisms as valid, and I think we both know that there are major disagreements between those two groups theologically. I find that Mormons tend to underestimate the importance of this fact, but it is absolutely essential to normative/historic Christianity, that is that it is monotheistic. By parting ways with monotheism, Mormonism has also parted ways with Christianity, if that title is to going to have any real meaning at all.

  16. ditchu said

    Let us get something out of the way…
    Measure has let it be knowen to me that he, as he put it, “has no more patiense” for me. This is just after I confirmed he was joking. Am I to take his words at face value or do I consider everything he says as some big Joke? This led me to think Measure as flimpant, which I can consider as benine, but he keeps changing his meaning but not his tone. It is as imposible to nail him down to what he says as jello to a wall.
    That being said, I apploogise for his irritation spilling out on your blog, I just thought it kinder to respond to him instead of ignoring him. (Guess that was wrong)

    That being out…..

    The Roman Catholic church is no longer in charge of the whole of Christiandom, sorry to break it to ya’ll, but they have not had that hold since the Church of england arose.

    As to Mormonism being Polytheistic, that depends on how you deturmine the theos, What I am getting at here is that although there is some lee-way for the general beleif of the existance of multipul gods, we Mormons do worship one God and thus we are monothistic. On the other side of this touchy coin the Catholic Church worships interseeders they call Saints. While they contest that these beings are not God they are paid special tributes as most other christian gorups pay to their God. There exists in the Catholic Church special Prayers, Rites, and Artifacts associated with these (devine) beings. As modern Christianity has developed from this church at some point in time, this opens the door to polythestic Christian beleifs (and Practices).

    It all boils down to your personal preception of what is and is not Christian. if we cannot agree on some basic terms, we could argue this until the next millium.
    As for differing views of Diety, I see multipul versions of God within each Church I have attended. There is a point that one’s faith becomes a personal thing, only affiliated to a group identity by agreement of simmular principals of each peoson’s faith.

    (If you wanted to we could segment differing faiths amoung any group, and I am sure you can find something in each group of each segment of Christianity to call radically different than the next guy.)

    As I stated and stand by: Mormons are Christian. we can devide up the groups from there.

    -D

  17. measure76 said

    It’s hard to pin ME down? Who can’t answer a question with a simple answer? Paragraphs upon paragraphs of crap come out of your keyboard every time anyone challenges you.

    You want the Mormon Doctine about Exaltation coming from Joseph Smith, instead of Christ only? Here you go:

    http://www.mrm.org/topics/joseph-smith/no-salvation-without-joseph-smith

    Now that I’ve been able to teach you the true history of mormonism, I expect that you will renounce the religion entirely. You can thank me when the shock wears off, Ditchu.

  18. measure76 said

    Also, Ditchu has accused me of being flimpant and benine. As I cannot find a dictionary entry for either word, I am at a loss. Better luck next time, Ditchu. Run a spell check or something, eh?

  19. nebula0 said

    Well, I’ll leave you and measure to it, ditchu.

    I used the RCC as an example because they are the largest Christian body in the world, so it is convenient. Mormonism is polytheistic because it teaches the worship at minimum of 2 gods, the Father and Son (if you doubt the latter, simply type in ‘worship Christ’ to the lds.org search engine). It’s fairly clear cut. Not only that, the belief that God the Father is an exalted man is still officially taught (see the Gospel Principles handbooks used to teach Sunday School to new members).

    Saying that Catholics are polytheistic because of saint intercession, on the other hand, is an act of ignorance. How can I say that with such certainty? Because of those ‘abominable’ creeds- the Nicene creed which the RCC has always held to be true clearly embraces monotheism. So either you have to accuse Catholicism of being duplicitous in claiming to follow the Nicene creed, which explicitly details their theology, or being utterly confused and you’ll straighten it out for them. I think we both know that Catholicism has brilliant theologians who would beg to differ with the latter option and have shown on many occasions that saint intercession is just that, seeking the of saints, recognizing them as saints (human beings), not gods.

  20. ditchu said

    Nebula0,
    Sorry if I had hit too close to a cord for you, May I clairify quicklly as not to leave you with any bitter feelings.

    I was taking an outsiders view point and looking at this as if it was a generilised subject not trying to target a group and attack it. I know that the RCC practice of “Saint worship” is not really polythestic, but I was making a point that depending on the usage of the term mono/poly-thesim one can make the argument I did about the RCC in the same way you made it about the LDS.

    In your last post you made it clear that in the worship of God the father and his son Jesus Christ from the viewpoint that they are both God is polythestic. So on that note my old Lutheren Church is also Polythestic, as they have the same view point of worshiping both God the Father and Jesus Christ, They get around the polythesim stigma by making them one God with the Holy ghost in the “Trinity.” This is the same in the LDS “God-Head” Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost are all one God as the God-head. We just know that Jesus Christ has a Body (testified by the apostels in the new testement), Mormons also continue to beleive that God the Father also has a Body. This is not Contrary to the teachings found in the Bible only more definate.

    ****
    A note about saint worship – It is not to place a stigma upon anyone it is just to classify the practice of praying and having faith in a Saint. I am making no judgment to its right or wrong, just that that is how it is.
    ****

    Thank you,
    -D

    P.S. -Measure, Try: flippant and benign.
    Sorry to try your latent mind, but It was dark where I was typing and I didn’t want to wake the other people of my household. Is it ok with you if I just ignore you now?

  21. ditchu said

    Measure that link is broken. Unable to follow you there.

  22. nebula0 said

    ditchu,

    That’s the problem with the internet, it’s impossible to tell tone. But, don’t worry, you didn’t hit a raw nerve as far as the RCC and saint worship goes. I just happen to know that to mistake saint intercession with worship is a sign of ignorance of Catholicism (I hope you didn’t take that as a personal insult, since, hey, you can’t know everything right?).

    As far as the trinity goes, I’m glad you brought this up. Since trinitarianism, a view to which I am personally partial, posits that there is but One God, one Being who is God, with three Persons, it isn’t the same thing. Why? MOrmonism explicitly says that God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate BEINGS, not just separate persons, there is a difference. Just as you talk about saint intercession being worship as not intended to offend, neither is my designation of Mormonism as polytheistic intended to offend, just to give the facts of the theology.

  23. measure76 said

    The link seems to work for me, from two different computers, but I’ll post one of the relevant paragraphs here: (As you have said you are a highly educated mormon, I am surprised you have not heard of this. I heard of it as an uneducated missionary)

    In his article entitled “Joseph Smith Among the Prophets” printed in the June 1994 issue of “Ensign” magazine, Mormon writer Robert L. Millet quoted second LDS Prophet Brigham Young, who, in 1859, stated, “From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:238. See also Search These Commandments, 1984, pg. 133).

  24. ditchu said

    Nebula0,
    No offence at all, I understand that we are just having a discussion and I think you are being fair and honest, which I appreciate.

    One thing about Trinitarianism that I think you ought to know, is that it was explained to me by my Lutheran Pastor that God is 3 entities in one God. “Entities” is synonymous with “Beings.” So in point of fact, either you are right in your assertion about the trinity and there are clergy that do not know it, or there is room for this difference in opinion. I tend to see how one entity could be a group working for the same goals, like a corporation. God the Father, needn’t be Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, but all three are God, and all three are one God. They are separate Beings with separate bodies and minds but, are unified in Godhood. It really comes down to differing perceptions of the same thing.

    Thank you and have a good day,
    -D

  25. nebula0 said

    Ditchu,

    It sounds to me like your Lutheran pastor did a terrible job of explaining teh Trinity to you. If anyone argues that there are 3 Gods, that person is not a trinitarian. Look at the authoritative formulation of the trinity in the Nicene creed: One Being, One Essence (ousia) which is God, with three Persons (expressions, hypostasis). This isn’t just a matter of ‘opinions’, yes everyone has an opinion, but some are just plain old wrong, and it si wrong to believe that Trinitarianism allows for the belief in multiple Gods, whether you agree with the doctrine or not.

    By the way, it’s great that you are able to handle disagreement so well. That’s always a sign of a mature mind.

  26. ditchu said

    Nebula0,
    Thank you for clairifying this for me, I guess he did not do a very good job. as a matter of fact I don’t think he ever answered the questions I asked him to any degree of satisfaction.

    Thanks.

    Measure, you may want to rethink your post. You mis-repersented the source. what it said in the Ensign Magazine June 1994,:

    “President Brigham Young uttered this bold statement: “Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians … that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ. …”

    This is speaking not of Salvation but of entering a certian degree of Golry in the Kingdom of Heaven, the Celestial to be percise. you made it sound as if Joseph Smith Jr. was responcible for your salvation. This is not so!

    All salvation rest upon Faith in Jesus Christ, there is no Prophet in Heaven or on the earth that can deny you your salvation given by Christ. Again Measure you are mixing up two co-existing spiritual ideals.

    I hope you can sort it out for yourself one of these days.
    God bless,
    -D

  27. ditchu said

    Measure,
    the full artical you qouated can be found here:

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d496425e0848b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

  28. measure76 said

    Well, I’m glad to see you once again deny the truth in evidence. I see you again with the mormon-only idea that salvation and exaltation are different, which itself defines mormons as non-christian, right in the middle of an argument about that very topic.

    amazing.

    I tire of you again, ditchu. I will flame you elsewhere.

    ’till next time, adeiu.

  29. ditchu said

    Measure,
    Is it me or do you want everyone to polerize themselves but think it ok for yourself to jump back and forth on joking and wanting to be taken serious.

    I point out an issue and you want me to see two seperate issues as the same thing. that is ambisous even for you. Let me break it down for you… Salvation is being “Saved,” going to Heaven, staying out of endless torment some call Hell. Exaltation happens after salvation. I hold to both ideals and am not conflected in the least due the the fact that they co-exist and are seperate events, one proceeding the other.

    (I am quite sure that I will get verbally bashed by you again… after your nap.)

    Sleep well,
    -D

  30. measure76 said

    I never sleep.

    Exaltation is a mormon idea, not a christian idea. Even if it was a Christian idea, it would be very un-christian to require anybody except Christ to grant it.

    I can’t believe you drew me in again.

  31. ditchu said

    Maybe you shoud sleep, that is why you get tired of me so quickly.

    Yes Exaltation is a Mormon idea but Mormons also adhear to the Christian Idea of Salvation. This is not a “One or the other” issue it is that we get salvation in the same way other Christians understand it but we add to it something that comes afterward.

    Good night,
    -D

  32. measure76 said

    Don’t you see that this proves mormons are not christian? That separating Exhaltation and Salvation is anti-christian at heart?

    You have found a way to prove that mormons are not Christian, and you don’t see it?

  33. nebula0 said

    measure has an important point here, but I think there is a bigger issue.

    Mormonism posits that God isn’t really… God as most people think, God is really any exalted person. That is, God is God because he is one of us all grown up. The only difference between us and God is lots and lots of time, we all have the potential to be like he is, by our very nature.

    In Christianity God is truly eternal and infinite, a different kind of Being altogether from us creations. It’s not just a matter of quantity (as in Mormonism), it’s a matter of quality between us and divinity.

    Thought I’d throw that in there.

  34. ditchu said

    What is infinite? Does that not mean that there is not a finite, measurable amount to God. All this represtnet is that there is no limmit to God, and thus to us He is all….

    In Life, can a son become a Father? When he does is he just like his father? Is ther not a lesson here on Earth that things go on in cycles a boy is born and he becomes a son to a father, that boy has a boy and he is a father to his son, that boy has a boy and the first boy here is a grandfather the second is a father and the third is a son.

    In an eternity would there be a limmit to one’s progression? Is ther a limmit to God? If not then is he not still “Maturing” “growing” progressing. and if that progression is in motion, where did it start?

    In mathematice a line continues on for eturnity in both directions.
    If God does not progress and never has then how are we to grow and progress. for are we not created in his likeness?

    This is my own line of questioning and I know not of the official Church standing and understanding of the progression of man and God to this extent, so I take full responcibility here in this line of thinking.

    God bless,
    -D

  35. nebula0 said

    ditchu,

    This is an important topic. If you look at my most recent two posts (exaltation vs theosis, and why does anything exist) you’ll see me hitting the topic of God’s nature. God isn’t just ‘relatively’ infinite from our point of view, He is absolutely infinite and eternal.

    That we are made in His image means that we are given rational spirits with choice in order to have a relationship with God.

    We are limited by our nature and what God chooses to give to us. If God chooses to stop sustaining our existence, we’d cease to exist immediately. Whatever we have and whatever our potential is we owe to God, completely.

  36. ditchu said

    Well, I directlly disagree with you on this.
    How are we to just stop existing? Even matter becomes energy when it is inilated. How would you suggest God go against his design and eliminate the existance of his creation?

    I do not hold to your views of God, This view of God is not a deturmination of Christianity… I know of many Christians who would not agree with your view.

    I think that we are created in the exact image and likeness of God.

    -D

  37. nebula0 said

    ditchu,

    Sure, other MOrmons will agree with you, but Mormons if included under the CHristian umbrella are a borderline case, at best in terms of Christianity.

    God can do anything and since He created energy out of nothing, He can surely, if He chose to, stop sustaining its existence. It’s nothing to God.

    As I explained in my “why does anything exist” thread, Mormonism fails to answer the basic existential questions which people strive to answer and proclaim them as useless speculation. THese questions are fundamental and we have them because God made us curious so as to seek Him. Declaring them useless speculation because Mormon theology fails to deliver answers isn’t an actual answer.

  38. ditchu said

    On the contrary, Mormonism has answers for “the basic existential questions…”

    Do we exist? Yes, God created us, we exist.
    Is there a meaning and Purpose to Life? Yes, we are born on the Earth to receive Physical bodies and to learn how to control and use them.
    Is there a Devine intelligence? Yes, We consider one God.
    Is Man inherently Good or inherently Evil? Man is inherently benevolent but can be corrupted and tempted to do evil.
    Is there anything beyond death? Yes, Jesus said that he was the life and resurrection, there is much to learn about where we come from before Birth and where we are to go after Death.
    Here are the answers to “the basic existential questions.” You take them or leave them however you please, but you cannot say that Mormonism has not provided these answers.
    -D

  39. measure76 said

    But Ditchu, the question is “Why does ANYTHING exist?”

    Saying we exist because God created us doesn’t answer the question about why God exists, why this earth is the best way to “receive a physical body” or why we couldn’t learn to control them somewhere else, instead of here.

    Given all that I’ve read from you, I don’t expect you to understand the question. But I’ll try, with this post.

  40. ditchu said

    Measure,
    As an ex-mormon you should know that Mormonism answers the question: “Why does ANYTHING exist?” It is no leap or streach of the immagination to see the answer in the Mormon view on “The Plan of Salvation”

    As for Why God exists, that would be answered with further understanding of the nature of Heaven and Divine matters. Like the structure of gods and their government and society. Most Christian groups are adamitlly against delving into such thought as they see it as Worshiping more that one God, and that they should not know such things…
    But there is a differance in worshiping many gods and seeking understanding of the order of heaven, just as there is a differance in being a fish and studying the ocean.

    Though I aknolage personally that there are multipul beings that have a status of diety, I worship one God, and am Christian. As for the answers you fear seeking, all you have to do to remain in ignorantcy is refuse to ask the questions. But if asked and answered then you must either accept the answer or refute it, as at that point Ignorance in not an option.

    Let me explain a bit about why questions.
    the easy one first, “why this earth is the best way to “receive a physical body” or why we couldn’t learn to control them somewhere else, instead of here.”
    This has already made some assumptions:
    1. this is the best place to receive a physical body.
    It very well may not be the best place, but it must work for here we are. It is like this. Say the best place to swim is the local community pool. But then why do some choose to swim in a swimming hole in the river or lake? this could be for many reasons: Location, natural/less chemicals, or the pool mey be crowded. Maybe we have been chosen to come to earth because we can endure more hardship than others that are crowding other places.
    2. there are other places to learn to control them. Mormonism has explained that the earth is a place to learn to use our bodies, also there is the fact that: we are here.

    The more difficult question to answer: Why does God exist. Here we must answer another question first: How does God exist? Well taking from some fellow Mormons and their understanding it is in much the same way we have come to exist…

    I will let you apply your intelligance here as I have to get back to work.
    -D

  41. measure76 said

    Sure, ditchu, in mormon doctrine, God was once a man, and he had a God, and it goes back eternally.

    So you have an eternal system, with no beginning and no end. So the question becomes… what created the system?

    As I predicted, you still have not answered that question.

  42. ditchu said

    The last system created this one. it is a revolution of a great Wheel.

    Good day

  43. measure76 said

    Ok, ditchu. I can agree. It is the revolution of a great Wheel. But the question is, what created the Wheel?

  44. ditchu said

    The wheelwright created the Wheel. and God created the Wheelwright ect. ect.

    Let me shorten our future discussion by jumping through the many questions you would repeat following this line of questioning.

    You are thinking lineriarly, which is not bad at all. I’d like to share with you how all this could be using some science and some great thinkers in our history.

    a laser will project a strait line of light if left undisturbed. if we shoot a laser out into space that line would go on forever if nothing inhibeted it. so like forever we see time as a strait line…

    Albert Enstine gave us the idea that Space in not flat but is curved. Thus a strait line is not a line but a curve, a constant curve. If we follow that constant curve through we will eventually come back around to the point we started to follow it. So, in the eternal prespective of this curve it will be a great Circle (or oval). In this respect the Eternal perspective may well have God creating the (creator of his creator)^1+n.
    I can understand your confusion as this scope is beyond anything you could imagine.

    -D

  45. measure76 said

    God can’t create the wheel if he’s part of it.

    But if God DID create the wheel, what created God?

    If God is only part of the wheel, what created the wheel?

    It’s a simple question.

  46. ditchu said

    It is simple! It’s the answer that you are not accepting.

  47. measure76 said

    Well, i guess that proves you can’t answer the question. I give you the last word.

  48. ditchu said

    It is not your place to give the last word…

    Also I did the best I could with my limmited cognitive powers. Which is better than just asking the same question over and over again and not accepting the answers someone gives.
    Humm, I wonder what else you would say if you would write another post here??

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